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SUMMARY

Christy-Faith interviews Pat Murray, a trailblazer in educational innovation, who shares his journey from being a high school math teacher to creator of groundbreaking online math programs. He emphasizes the importance of finding the best way to teach math to engage and help students succeed. Pat’s short and concise videos, along with interactive pen-and-paper practice, provide effective instruction. He encourages parents to identify and fill in any gaps in their child’s math foundation. Pat’s approach focuses on building confidence and achieving success, which can lead to overall happiness and growth in other areas of life. Christy-Faith and Pat discuss math anxiety, the importance of patience and persistence, and the value of knowing times tables. Pat shares his thoughts on the future of artificial intelligence in math education and the need for human connection. Overall, the conversation provides insights and strategies for parents and educators to support math learning.

TAKE-AWAYS

• 38% of primary school teachers struggle with math themselves, highlighting the need for effective math instruction in homeschooling.
  
• Short and concise math videos, along with pen-and-paper practice, can help students understand and retain math concepts.
  
• Identifying and filling in gaps in a child’s math foundation is crucial for success in math.
  
• Building confidence and achieving success in math can lead to overall happiness and growth in other areas of life. Math anxiety is a real issue that many students and even teachers face. Patience, persistence, and a positive attitude are key in overcoming math anxiety.
  
• Knowing times tables and having automaticity with math facts can boost confidence and problem-solving skills in math.
  
• Number filling puzzles can be a fun and engaging activity for students to practice math skills.
  
• Explicit instruction is essential in math education, providing clear and concise teaching that helps students build a solid foundation.
  
• Artificial intelligence can play a role in math education by providing personalized learning experiences and access to instructional videos.
  
• Human connection and interpersonal skills are important in a technology-driven world, and parents need to be intentional in fostering these skills in their children.
  
• CTC Math offers features such as clear teaching videos, automated lesson planning, and celebratory confetti to engage and support students in their math learning.

ABOUT TODAY’S GUEST

Pat Murray, an educational innovator from Sydney, began as a passionate high-school math teacher and has since pioneered globally acclaimed online math programs (CTCMath), that have become integral to homeschooling families worldwide. His programs, with combined sales over $90 million, have empowered both parents and students, making quality math education accessible to all. With over 36 years of marriage and ten children, his family values deeply influence his mission. Pat’s trailblazing spirit inspires a new generation to find joy and success in mathematics, regardless of their classroom’s location.

Find Pat at:* https://CTCMath.com

TRANSCRIPT

Christy Faith (00:00.078)
One of amazing things is that 38 % of primary school teachers aren’t good at math themselves. So as a home school mom or dad, if you’re struggling a little bit, I I understand 38 % can’t do math themselves properly and that’s their full -time profession. That’s incredible. You know what’s interesting is we had a piano teacher once and when we were interviewing him, he said, I think I’m a better piano teacher because I struggled.

It did not come naturally to me. So when I was learning piano, I had to really learn methods and habits. And it’s, he felt like it made him a better piano teacher. I think there’s so much to that, don’t you?

I think there is. know, I mean, I was lucky I was quite gifted at math, but I did struggle with other subjects for sure. to the Christy Faith Show, where we share game changing ideas with intentional parents like you. I’m your host, Christy Faith, experienced educational advisor and homeschool enthusiast. Together, we’ll explore ways to enrich and transform both your life and the lives of your children.

Welcome to the Christy Faith show. are thrilled to be bringing once again, a guest on the show that is going to help us tremendously with a huge pain point that parents have in our homeschools. And that is math. I have invited Pat Murray on our show today to share with us his wisdom. Pat Murray is a trailblazer in educational innovation from Sydney, Australia, who’s redefining the way we approach learning at

Beginning his journey as a passionate high school math teacher, Pat has since pioneered online math programs that have not only achieved global acclaim, but have also become a cornerstone of homeschooling curricula across multiple countries. Pat’s math programs have combined sales in excess of 90 million and his work has empowered parents and students alike, making quality math education accessible to all. Married for over 36 years and a father to 10 children,

Christy Faith (02:08.983)
Pat’s family values deeply influence his mission to support homeschooling families with resources that cater to diverse learning needs. Join us as we hear from Pat, whose innovative spirit is inspiring a new generation of learners to find joy and success in mathematics, no matter where their classroom may be. So happy to have you on the show here today, Pat. I want to hear about your journey from being a high school math teacher to pioneering one of the

incredible online math programs. What inspired that transition? Tell us a little bit about your history. thought I was probably about 15 years old at school. By that stage, I thought I was going to become a math teacher. I loved math and I liked my teachers, right? So I was lucky, I had some great teachers. I also was a good footballer. So I was offered a contract for professional football when I was 19. So I had a decision. I was going to do both. I was going to be a

and also a teacher and meld those together because I knew quite a few teachers who went down that path. I got married, my wife and I got married very young and as a result I said, well, the footballing career might not be the best thing for a young married family. So I left that and did the math full time. I worked in systemic schools for about 10 years or so and all the way through that I found that, you know, the kids are having the same sort of problems.

They typically had the same sort of problems, what they were getting stuck on. And I learned a lot, funnily enough, when I was doing tutoring as well. I guess I was teaching math during the day, doing a lot of tutoring at home and or at people’s places one -on -one or in small groups. And what I found there was that I could show them a way and they’d either get it or they didn’t. And then I could switch and show them a different way because that was really important. What I discovered in the first 10 years or so of teaching because

as a student at university when you’re learning to be a teacher, I would ask the lecturer, I said, okay, there’s a few ways I can teach this math problem. There’s a few different ways you can solve it. Which way is the best? Because I was always after what’s the best way? And they’d say, look, doesn’t matter. Just pick one way and just stick with it. They’re all pretty much the same. And I thought, okay, because that’s what my lecturer said. Anyway, I found that that was not the case at all. It was depending

Christy Faith (04:33.262)
the way you taught it, the words you used, the structure, all the sequence of things made a huge difference on whether a kid understood it or not. So I was able to learn that and practice that on the kids I’d shoot at and in the classroom. so that gave me a good stutter. Now, I always had my radar out. What’s the best way? What’s the best way? So then after about 10 years teaching, I also was working on, I quite enjoy the computer side of things. started

creating these little my own videos on and it was way back this was 1998 now and my my brother’s a computer programmer he’s the other founder of CTC Math that’s the two brothers who founded it and and we worked together and we started developing these these these these programs they’re short little videos and I quit teaching and I opened up a couple of tutoring centers with another teaching friend of mine and those centers they were okay but what I found was the hours

weren’t very good as a parent, with young kids at home. So we moved away from that and then we went into what is now CTCMAT. Firstly, the programs were on CD -ROM, so we’re talking way back, and then on DVDs, and then we switched to the internet. Probably in 2005, 2006, our video, mean, my brother’s very clever. He actually produced a way that we can actually stream our videos

over in those days, old dial up internet. the real slow internet, it’s he figured out a way you could do that. Anyway, so that’s, that’s sort of the, the journey on the way in Australia. Don’t know if you know this, but, McDonald’s, the hamburger company approached us in 2007 because they wanted, they realized their kids that they were employing 15, 16 year old kids, know, their first part -time job while they were at school. They would give them this basic literacy and numeracy test. They said,

And I said, Pat, it’s really basic, but 50 % are failing, right? So, wow. Okay, so anyway, they used our program to help, you know, as a bit of a perk for their kids. And then a couple of years later, they approached us and we did a big Australia -wide where McDonald’s sponsored and made our program free, McDonald’s paid us free for every Australian high school kid and teacher. So that was a massive thing. And as far as I know, it’s still a world first. was a first. I don’t think it’s really been replicated.

Christy Faith (06:59.758)
So we did that for three years, 2009, 2010, 2011. And then since then we went into the, you know, we made our program, designed it available for the homeschooling market for homeschoolers in 2013. So that’s when CTC Math was born. The CTC, particularly for homeschoolers there. And then we just sort of just steadily grown over those years.

and reach small people and kept on developing the program. that’s the inspiration, I guess, with the transition is that I found so many kids who were struggling and they weren’t, when they showed me the way they were being taught in another school and looked by some other teachers, I thought, gee, there’s a better way. Math should be much more accessible for these kids. They shouldn’t be,

called back by having a teacher who wasn’t so good, or they might even be a teacher who wasn’t even a math teacher. mean, often in schools, there’s teachers who were English teachers trying to teach math, or PE teachers teaching math. It just doesn’t work. I mean, I know I’ve had that experience myself. When I was teaching, I had to fill in a few for a different subject for 12 months or so, and I hated it. And not only did I hate it, I was hopeless at it, teaching it. This is like, I had to teach a science class.

And you you think, I’m a good, great math teacher, but I should be good at science. Well, I wasn’t. was not good. I was not a good science teacher. So I didn’t enjoy it. The kids didn’t like it. And it was just the whole 12 months was was hopeless. Right. So I get it. Like, so if a if a student, you know, over the years, whether they’ve come from a systemic school or whether they get schooling at home, you know, if they’re not getting the right teaching, it’s very difficult for them to succeed. And I can always remember

in grade 11 and 12, which is our leaving years in Sydney, I chose geography. Now I was pretty hopeless at geography and I didn’t actually like it. So I didn’t actually like it. And I can remember a teacher, Mrs. Alderton, she came in and said, Pat, you don’t seem to care much about this subject or you don’t, you don’t bring much effort in. And I just said, well, I don’t like it. And she said two things. She said, well, one, you chose it. I said, well, that’s true. So I did. secondly, she

Christy Faith (09:25.59)
What about us? Let’s work together. You know, what are you good at? And I said, well, I’m really good at math. And she said, OK, well, I know you don’t like I can see by you that like your essays, you know, essay. So I hate it. I just can’t stand it. She said, OK, well, you’re not going to get the very top mark in geography, but you don’t need to. OK, but let’s get you a good mark. And she showed me a way that I could present all the stuff that I knew in point form, in bullet form, with diagrams and that. And just with that little shift, I actually quite

I won’t say I’ve enjoyed doing Geography but I actually end up getting quite a good mark. So she found a way to help me even though I didn’t like it but she worked out what are my strengths and she helped me with those strengths to get a good mark in the end. Like she said it wasn’t going be the top mark because I had to be really good at essay writing if I wanted the top mark but I

But I did want to perform. did want to succeed in that subject. Well, I wonder if you took that skill to math because I feel like one of the things you’re really talented at in the videos is just being succinct to the point, giving the kids what they need. I’m surprised how much you can accomplish in such a short lesson. mean, the short lessons, they are short, but in terms of preparation to get them that short, it takes a long time. A great story is about Picasso and Picasso, he’s about 83 years old at the time.

He was sitting down just with a friend having coffee. as they were waiting for coffee, waiting for their food to come out, he was just drawing on the placemat there. And he’s just drawing away. And eventually, his friend said, wow, that’s fantastic, that drawing. Can I buy it off you? Picasso’s thinking a bit. He goes, you know, how much would you charge me? And he said, well, I charge you $25 ,000 for this. And his friend said, what? $25 ,000?

It only took you 15 minutes. Picasso said, no, it took me 63 years and 15 minutes to produce that thing. So in a way, the lessons that I teach, while there might be three minutes, four minutes, five minutes, I keep it deliberately short. But it takes me all of those years of experience to really nail down the best way that I can teach anybody. And I do go back to that geography.

Christy Faith (11:43.842)
teacher I shared the story with. She helped me understand that, okay, even though you might be struggling with a subject, there is a way. So one of the things I’ve always tried to do is to realize that, okay, the kids that I’m teaching, they might not necessarily like math. In fact, they might hate it to start with, okay? There are kids that love it and they’re easy to teach because they’ll just, whatever you tell them, they’ll just dive in and do

Okay, that’s great. Okay, you always need those kids. But the kids that I guess I help the most are the ones who have struggled before or don’t quite get it. There’s gaps missing. And I nail down, okay, what’s the best way to teach these kids? How can I present this information so they can understand it? And that’s, guess that’s the gift I have. And I’ve worked on that, you know, and I appreciate it. I don’t take that for granted. So that’s something that I really…

have appreciated over the years. And I guess I appreciate a lot because there’s a lot of appreciation come back my way from, from parents and kids who, you know, were struggling with math at one stage, but then they’re achieving quite well. Yeah. Well, that was the story in our family. mean, CTC math, it saved an entire school year. We moved over. We have never looked back. I mean, it was tears every day and we got on there. We did the diagnostic, you know, the grade level mastery. We found out exactly where those gaps were.

targeted those to make sure that school year we could put it behind us. We just haven’t looked back and you look at the comments on the videos that I make for you or on the social media, it’s over and over and over again. Parents are saying CTC math saved us. what, what is really phenomenal to me about it is, you know, we, my husband did run our math department, but I was very intimately involved. have taught every math curriculum pretty much out there. And what really

To me, why CDC stands apart and above the rest is that there isn’t a sacrifice in academics. Sure, there’s homeschool programs that, my goodness, you saved my bacon, but it’s watered down. And that is not the case with you. And I think it does go to your talent. I do a lot of copywriting just for my job. And it’s amazing how you will spend eight hours trying to make one sentence so simple.

Christy Faith (14:07.192)
And then you deliver that sentence and they’re like, that probably took her five seconds. Let’s know that’s Athena. right. Yeah. So it’s absolutely a talent and I’m glad you recognize that because sometimes it’s hard to appreciate that in ourselves because after all we, does look simple now. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I’m always, yeah, even now I’m always learning. mean, I have a, I’m a lifelong learner. So I’ve got, I’ve got a, I’ve got a business coach. I’ve got a, a speaking coach.

And, and the speaking coach is great. He’s a guy named Joel Weldon. He’s in the, he’s, he’s based in the States. He’s a, he’s a hall of favor. But one thing that I, that I learned from Joel is that when I, if I look back at my older videos and the ones that we’re producing now, we always producing new ones and updating them. But he’s, gave me a few tips, you know, that, that I could even prove them even better. I’m, you know, I’m, I’m never, I’m never too.

You know, too proud, I guess, to learn because I love learning. If I go back in my younger days, and it is interesting because I was interested in history, for example, when I was a, it was so boring, you know, the olden days, right? But as an adult now, I really enjoy history. But yeah, I guess I’ve always had that appreciation of, you you’re teaching kids who might not be that interested in things. So you’ve got to find ways to engage them. And I’ve always found the biggest engagement factor

is when they start succeeding. So they might say, how can you make math interesting? How can you make math less boring? Well, sometimes you, sometimes they’re just not that interested, but I’ve never found a kid who isn’t interested in success. So when you start giving them opportunities to succeed, where often before they’ve struggled or failed or, you know, that, that becomes, they build their own confidence and capabilities. And then they might not necessarily ever love math, but they loved that

feeling of achievement and success and that is just a small part of their whole life. Okay, once you get those that confidence and that achievement, you know, sort of taken care of, then that flows into other other areas of their life. They just become more confident and more happy kids. And I think most parents really just like to see their kids happy. All right. They like to see them challenged, of course, but they don’t want to see a miserable miserable kid. Right. Okay. So if they can, if they if I can help their kids to be happier.

Christy Faith (16:32.622)
Well, that’s something that I, again, I don’t take that for granted. I appreciate that that’s a gift and I want to do my best, particularly for homeschool mums and dads. mean, they’ve taken on a big challenge, a fantastic challenge, but nonetheless, it’s difficult and I’d like to offer our team, like to offer as much support as we can. Yeah, that reminds me, I just did a reread for a book club, James Clear’s Atomic Habits.

At the end of the book, it just reminded me and it applies so much to educating our kids. And he does go into motivation a little bit. And there’s so much, of course, that goes into motivating kids. But a big factor, I think, pertaining to math, and I’d love to hear your thoughts on this, is where there’s too big of a gap with the challenge. The challenge is too hard. And if it’s just broken down into micro challenges that are more manageable, they can get those little bits of reward along the

that makes it an enjoyable process. makes something really hard is when it’s just too big sometimes, just overwhelming and too big. As adults, we’ve got tools to hopefully manage that. But as a kid, haven’t learned, often they haven’t learned that. So an overwhelming thing could be, you know, the problem right in front of them. I mean, just as an aside, one of the biggest things that you can do, if you want to completely demoralize your kids, you actually give them a math textbook, which is about 700 pages.

That’s what happens. I can’t believe that publishers still do this over years. They’ve just grown and grown. Okay, that’s crazy. So just get that if you’ve got a thick textbook, probably hide that maybe just pull out a sheet at a time if you need to, but just that’s demoralizing. But yeah, when a question is overwhelming, often it does, it was a couple of things it might happen. What might occur? They’ve got some gaps. there’s part of that problem they need to solve and they don’t quite understand.

not necessarily even where to start, they just, okay, that concept is a little bit foreign. You might need to go back and that’s great. And that’s great. You mentioned the diagnostic tests, Christy, that’s really good in the fact that if your kids are struggling with that, you want to figure out where they’re getting stuck. And a diagnostic test is a great thing because if you get them, that’s a pretty quick thing to do. I’ll sit there, work through 20, 30 questions or so. And then you can see, okay, well,

Christy Faith (18:56.174)
even though they might be in grade four, okay, there’s actually some gaps here that we’ve to go back to grade three or maybe even grade two. It’s no big deal. You’ve got to go back a couple of years. Don’t panic. That’s fine. And that’s quite typical if a kid’s struggling. So we’ve tried to make it as easy as possible for you to jump back and forth in our program when needed. And I guess that’s one big thing I tell parents all the time. Look, just because your child’s 10 years old and you’ve got the pigeon hold in

or the expectation is they should be in this particular grade, there may be some gaps that you need to go back and fill and that’s fine. And I find, parents tell me all the time that, okay, the kids were struggling a bit and they were still struggling and as a parent they felt pretty anxious, my child should be here, they’re back here. But don’t be surprised where sometimes it just clicks and your child can do two years, two and a half years of

in a 12 month period. Okay, I find that very common. and it’s different from every child. I mean, I’ve got 10 children, right? And I’ve got five boys and five girls. I mean, they’re ages 15 up to 35 at the moment when we’re recording this. But some were fantastic at math and others weren’t. It just wasn’t their thing. They were much more into humanities and stuff. All one of them was very good with his hands, became an electrician.

It is interesting even within the one family, you’ve got all these different abilities. okay, so even if you’re, yep, if they’re getting a bit, I think one of the great stories I like to talk about is Thomas Edison, know, the inventor of the light bulb. Now he has said, you know, he’s quite to say that he, you know, he had 10 ,000 failures. He didn’t call them failures, he, failures, sorry.

He had 10 ,000 experiments which failed. Now he didn’t call them failures, he called them 10 ,000 ways of working out what doesn’t work there. until he got the right thing. Same with J .K. Rowling. Right, J .K. Rowling, she had 12 publishers turn her down, before Harry Potter, before she found a publisher who would do her books. So there’s lots of things in life where you think it’s a failure, but it’s basically you haven’t got

Christy Faith (21:16.97)
yet. And I like to use the word yet. If a child says, I’m not good at math, you might just say, well, no, you’re just not good at math yet. And that’s a great word because it gives you a bit of hope that you’re going to get there at some stage. I love that. Before we continue, I want to share with you a program that has been a game changer for our family.

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First off, it’s a mastery -based program, which means your child gets a full grasp of the material. It’s also loaded with mixed reviews, ensuring your kids don’t forget anything they’ve learned. The questions are adaptive too, which keeps students confident and progressing at their own pace. But the best part, all the teaching, grading, and testing, done for you. With CTC math, there is no compromise on excellence.

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Christy Faith (23:24.098)
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Christy Faith (24:17.016)
people who don’t homeschool, I don’t think they realize this at all, that we actually have access to world -class instructors because we homeschool. The experts in our field who are the best of the best, like you being a math teacher, our Latin teacher graduated from Stanford with a classical languages degree. That is our Latin teacher. We hop on a Zoom with her twice a week.

And I don’t think people realize one where the school system is anyway, you’re getting that you’re getting one. just, they’re so desperate for teachers. They’re recruiting pretty much anybody, but to have it raise your hand at my audience right now. If you had a PE teacher or the coach teach history, or I mean, my biology teacher was the coach. He literally didn’t even look up from his desk. He was working on his plays and he told us to open up the book and

That’s the biology that I got and I hate biology to this day. just wasn’t interested by it and all of that. I wanted to ask you, because I think something that I hear about your program is, Pete, parents have struggled so much and then they moved to CTC and the tears are gone. I think that homeschool parents can really struggle and sometimes even give up on homeschooling really because of math. Honestly, I really do believe this. I’ve seen it over and

parents struggling with their kids being upset or crying during their math lessons. In your experience, have you been able to boil that down to some key issues? What do you think parents can look for in terms of root causes? And I’m asking you that because you figured out some sort of secret sauce because the tears end when we get on your program. So what is that secret sauce that you’re doing there where we’re struggling and about to quit and sacrificing academic rigor?

things all of a sudden are just a little bit more stable and calm. I think the key thing is the actual instruction. So when you can find a way or you can find a program that actually helps the kids understand it and understand it quite quickly. And it’s one of the reasons our videos are so short. I I could talk for 15 minutes on all this and quite easily,

Christy Faith (26:39.01)
That would just be me showing off to show all the different ways I could do something. So that’s not what you want as a teacher. But unfortunately, that’s what some teachers do. They think it’s a platform for them to do on how smart they are. But the key is that you’ve got to think, OK, the focus is on your child. OK, how can you show something that they can learn quite quickly? And even if they don’t get it the first time around, it’s short enough to go back and watch the video again. So that’s really important. Because sometimes you watch something.

for two or three minutes or four or five minutes and you don’t quite get it the first time, watch it again and it’s amazing just by watching it another time that the petty drops if you like. So the videos really are the key. Now after that, then the next thing is that you’ve got to practice what you just saw, what you just learned. So if you start by practicing some easier questions to start with as well, we’ve got our interactive questions.

And while they’re interactive and they’re on the computer screen, we still really encourage them. We really get to do pen and paper. Okay. If you do pen and paper, so get your pen and paper out. Kids are working, working it out on pen and paper because there’s a lot of research at the moment, which is great because it backs up. What I’ve always thought on is that you learn much better. it, everything retains a lot more if you’re working on pen and paper rather than just what, you know, you’re on an iPad or a computer, which unfortunately

A lot of the generation coming through now are doing that. That’s a problem and it’ll switch back when more and more people realize that they retain a lot more. Now the idea of tears and frustration, I guess, you know, it is frustrating for everybody. And I guess when that happens, it’s because something’s happened in the past. If generally most kids, when they first learn how to count or to do anything with math, generally they’re okay at it. Okay. Or very good at

And it’s generally at some stage through their math journey, if you like, that they’ve come across something that they didn’t quite understand. And because they didn’t understand it, and math is cumulative, it builds on top of each other. Then the next time they come across that, which requires that as a building block, well then they can’t do the new work because they’re stuck on the old work. So I think the key

Christy Faith (28:59.166)
is to fix up those building blocks that might have been not placed properly from the past. And the best way to do that is through those diagnostics, identify them and then go back. I mean, the one thing that I’ve always tried to do as well in my videos, I’m not, even though some of my videos I know have been watched by more than a million students right around the world, I’m not teaching to a million students. I’m just teaching to one child and that’s your

And it’s in a way, I always, and this is when I record my videos and that, it’s like I am sitting down next to them. Okay. And a lot of parents tell me that’s how it feels like. And that’s great because that’s intentionally, that’s how I try to teach that I’m actually sitting down with your child, show them how to do it, showing them the very best ways that I know that, that how, how to understand math and, you know, tackle a problem or a challenge. And that, that seems to rub off on, on the, on the kids, you know, using the program and,

So I guess that’s the thing. because I’m hopefully a friendly voice, that also stops the tears because I’m very keen and very supportive that your child succeeds. Because I know that with that success that they get where they failed before or they’ve struggled before, that just flows on to so many other things in their education. It certainly does. we have… I want to hit on the pain points here because math…

Well, it can be so hard in folds and it’s one of the reasons why I just, I tell parents source well on the, on the stuff that’s just causing you guys a lot of trouble for whatever it is, just source well, because there are people that can help you. We just talked about tears and being upset. I want to transition a little bit to another big issue in a lot of homeschool households and that is math anxiety.

We have one in our house who really struggles with math anxiety. Do you have any words of encouragement for parents today regarding that? Yeah, I do. Well, firstly, I would say a couple of P words, Patience, persistence, and a positive attitude. I think, you know, again, you’ve said that, you know, you’ve got one who’s got math anxiety and the others may not. So it is a real thing. I mean, that’s one thing. You recognize that it is actually real. And I mean, one of the stats…

Christy Faith (31:24.43)
that I find absolutely amazing is that in schools, in systemic schools, 38 % of primary teachers, again, I’m about kids, 38 % of primary teachers have math anxiety. Okay, so, and this is their full -time job being a teacher in a school. So they, and the way they deal with that math anxiety quite often is they ignore it and they just don’t do much math at school, right? So you could, okay, and you talk about, you know, where do your problems start?

Well, often they can start if you’ve gone through, you know, if your child’s gone through some systemic schooling or whether you as a parent has, you know, you would you would find that that, you know, at some stage that the teachers teach you had little or no idea on how to teach math. So that’s a problem. Right. So that’s that’s a cause of math anxiety. Now, in terms of in terms of how do you deal with it? Yeah. Patience is a big thing. Patience is a big thing. Get the kids

to do something that they’re going to achieve on it. If you’ve got to go back a little bit, just, just give them some level of success or some taste of success and reward them for that. Okay. I think one of the great things that that is over and off often overlooked is the ability to just know your times tables, know your fast facts. Okay. And I’m a big, big advocate that you’ve got to know those off by heart. You just have to, you don’t have to think about it, but you just know them. So there’s plenty of ways.

plenty of tools there that you can you can practice those and just by practicing those, okay, that, you know, giving your kids the ability to recall those facts really quickly and it takes to take a bit of effort, of course, but they’ll get a lot of confidence from that. If you can, if you can just say, okay, how did you, you know, what’s what’s five fates five, eight and I’ll just go 40, you know, things like that. And then you say, yeah, you’re getting good at this. You can get that sort of encouragement. I also find

One of the great things that kids of all ages like doing, if they give the opportunity, is these number filling puzzles where you’ve got, it’s like a crossword, but you’re filling in with numbers and so on. And while it’s just a matter of, you know, pretty off those and it’s a great activity for kids, even if they’re struggling, I found so many people who really enjoy doing that. And a funny story, just even a couple of weeks ago, I had

Christy Faith (33:45.998)
printed off some for my own grandkids and they were having great fun doing them and then there was a few left over in the morning the next morning I came down and my 23 year old daughter was sitting at the table and she was doing it and she’s the one who actually didn’t like math at school but oh she actually didn’t didn’t finish math at school she dropped it but it was quite amazing that something so you know she got quite involved and then another sister joined in as well and one of her friends joined and there was three of them sitting at the table very quietly it was

They weren’t on their iPhones. They weren’t on any technology. They were doing pen and paper, a puzzle. And my wife came over and she just, you she took a photo. was just, it was quite incredible. that’s great. I bet that made your heart smile. You know, you said something that resonated with me very deeply. You know, I run a membership where I, do, it’s a how -to membership, like how to homeschool, but also it’s for veteran homeschool moms too, who just need to fine tune, refresh.

One of the main things that I noticed and why I started Thrive was this insecurity. Am I going to mess my kid up? Am I, am I doing this all wrong? I see everyone on Instagram and everything looks beautiful and I’m not doing it like that. Do I need to do it like that? And it’s this self doubt. What is fascinating is the way that the journey that I’ve been able to put these homeschool moms on. have this program called the eight step homeschool success framework. And I also have a program called

the failsafe homeschool setup and that’s more of like logistics, like how to stay legal and calendar your year is the, when they go through those programs, the confidence they have after, now this relates to what you were saying in just a second, an epiphany that I had is I am building skills. I am literally from my 20 years in education, reading, working with thousands of kids, reading, you know, that many IEPs implementing

remediation programs at my center, I am skill building in these mamas from a veteran educator. This is how we would do it. And that is what is building their confidence. And when you mentioned that automaticity with math facts, that’s what, we call it here. Do you call it like that in Australia? Automaticity. don’t often use that term, automaticity. And you can tell because I can’t even pronounce it, but I understand what it is. Yeah.

Christy Faith (36:10.24)
It’s interesting because it’s amazing what, and that is a skill. That is literally a skill that once you have it and you own it, no one can take it away from you. And it builds your confidence in math later. That was a huge thing at our center, getting those kids. Now I wanna, I wanna have a caveat here for those parents listening. Cause I know there’s parents listening that are thinking my kid cannot, they’re not sticking, right? So I do want to say there are legitimate issues as to why

math facts can’t stick or aren’t sticking in your kiddo. It could be working memory issues. Maybe your kid needs to be tested. So just having that said, and I want you to feel heard in that, that does not mean you’re doing something wrong if your kid is struggling necessarily with getting those math facts by heart in their memory. For a typical kid who doesn’t struggle with math, by what age do you like to see their math facts down pat? Probably when they’re about

Um, 10, nine, nine or 10 years old, it’d be great if they can have all those math facts down, down pat. So, right. Like before they start getting into that long division and all of that. I’m glad you mentioned long division. Actually. It’s an interesting one. I think, and it’s probably, it’s probably good for me to tell all the, all the moms and dads at home. Look, long division, don’t ever get caught up in that. I mean, that’s, it’s a crazy sort of concept actually, long division.

It requires sometimes about 45 to 50 calculations within a long division and the kid has to get every single one of them right to get the actual problem right. So I’ve always said to homeschool parents, look, yeah, it’s part of the curriculum. Have a go at it. Don’t get caught up if they can’t do it because the next time it’s amazing. The next time they will do long division or a derivation of wrong division.

is when they do what’s called polynomial division, when they’re about 16 years old and it’s only the very top kids in math who will actually get exposed to that. So it’s a funny one. Everyone’s supposed to do long division when they’re 10, 11 or 12 years old and then they don’t see it again and only the very top math kids will see that again, that whole concept. So just look, if your kids don’t understand long division, don’t panic, okay, because it’s a crazy sort of concept.

Christy Faith (38:34.922)
That’s a little disruptive, I don’t know if the math experts how they’ll feel about that. Okay. No, well, it’s great because look, I’ve taught long division one way all my life. Okay. All my life, all my professional life, I’ve taught it one way, but I’ve actually came at, and this is what I’m talking about. I’m a lifelong learner. I have come across another way of teaching it, which I’m just creating videos now for it. And I’m actually going to create a whole booklet for it because I know I have schooling parents

just does their heading. Okay, it’s an expression we use in Australia. Don’t know if you use that, but it does their heading. You know, they just, you know, and so I’ve created, yeah, just creating some new ones. And I’m basically just stripping it out of the regular course. And I’m seeing it’s really a problem solving. The way it’s taught is a problem solving thing. And that’s why it’s so hard. It’s so hard because it is a problem solving. It’s trial and error and trial and error. Now I’ve come across a way where actually you can take the trial and error away.

And I’ve tested a number of kits and they just find it so much easier. It’s just an algorithm approach. I’m creating a couple of videos based on that, which is different from what I’ve got in the program right now. So anyway, there’s hope. There’s spoke for all you long division. The show will resume in just a minute. But first, I want to share with you an incredible resource that is totally free to homeschooling families everywhere.

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Christy Faith (40:45.806)
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Well, that’ll be great as a supplemental if parents are struggling in that area to be able to tap into that resource. Okay. So here’s the other one. Are you ready? It’s I’m never going to use this in my real life. Why do I have to do this? And sometimes it’s hard to make the argument. I gotta be on it. I mean, yeah. So for those families whose kids are like, this is boring or they think that this is completely irrelevant. What?

Christy Faith (42:53.73)
can we do to make math a little bit more engaging? What can we say to our kids? Look, that’s a really hard one because I can always remember as a when I was teaching in school, you know, I’d get that all the time, right? And I had the big advantage over the kids I was teaching. I said, well, whether you’re going to use this or not, you know, I’ve got this grade that you have to pass. You’ve got this exam that you’ve got to pass. So that was an easy answer for me. And I thought that was a bit of a clever

But realistically, you know, when your kids do ask that, it’s a challenging question because you’re, okay, I mean, your kids don’t see how much math they’ll require or how much logic and problem solving they’ll require in their life, right? You know, they might be doing trigonometry, you know, trying to find an angle. I when are they ever going to use that? And the answer really is never, okay? They’re never going to use it. But so you can’t, it’s hard to say, well, if you’re going to build a bridge, you got to use it. Well, yeah, but I’m

I’m not interested in building bridges, right? I’m not going to be an engineer. So it is an interesting one. And I don’t think I’ve got the perfect answer, but the way I just encourage parents to react there is say, look, the skills that you’re learning, the skills that you’re learning will help you make better decisions. It’ll increase your problem solving. You you’ll have problems in your life. You want to figure out ways to do it. Okay. Math a lot like problem solving. One of the big thing in math as well is pattern recognition. You recognize patterns.

and that can flow over to recognizing heaps of patterns, patterns of behavior even. But I guess it is a tricky one. I’ve got a perfect answer for that one. But I think if you can just say, it’s going to help your problem solving skills. It helps you build logic, how you think about things. What works, what doesn’t work, how you can test things, trial and error. All of these things are great skills. But you’re right. As a parent, you sort of get

And as a kid, it’s hard to sort of future think that that’s where it’s going to come in handy. So look, I don’t know the answer to that. That’s a real tough one. Well, you know, it’s interesting because my kids go through piano and we have them do music lessons. And I was convinced of making sure my kids did music because of that whole right brain, left brain stuff and how

Christy Faith (45:10.382)
I read studies a while back when I was beginning homeschooling just about how different thinkers, the musicians are different thinkers. Their brains are being fired in different areas and in different ways and connecting the left and the right brain. And you know, it’s interesting in college. So I was always a rule follower student, one of those perfectionists, you 4 .0. I even did great in math through the public school system, which isn’t saying much, but I will say I realized

I did not have a math sense. Like I didn’t own a math sense. When I went to my first logic class in college, I struggled because that is so mathematical, that thinking. And I really had a hard time in that class. And I was thinking when you were saying that, that, those are math skills. Those are problem solving, reasoning.

even just decide the decision on how to attack us, how you’re going to attack a problem. Practicing that type of a thing I think is, is really valuable. But yeah, it’s pretty hard when they’re learning a complicated thing. And, you know, a lot of us get to say like, well, you gotta do well on the SAT to get into college, you know, but not everybody is college. Yeah, I used to use that one too, but not everyone is college bound, you know, but what I will say, you know, my degree free friends, have degree, some friends in the space who help kids

who are not college bound. The thing is, is there are still certification tests. Like you said at McDonald’s, they had to pass a basic math test still. So they do need these skills in their life, you know, no matter what. Yeah, well they do. like if, yeah, even my son who became an electrician, I mean, part of their certificate is a lot of math that was involved in that very, very particular math for the electrician side of things, but still, yeah, they to have some sort of competence in math. Otherwise they wouldn’t

you know, he wouldn’t have got through it. Exactly. Yes, I want to transition a little bit. I feel like we hit on some of those big problems that parents have in their homeschools. But I also want to ask you a little bit about AI and technology and what you see for our future. What do you see as the role of artificial intelligence in math education in the next 10, 20 years? Where do see that going? That’s a great question. I know AI is really big at the moment, massively.

Christy Faith (47:35.106)
I mean, we’ve always had built into ours some sort of AI, some sort of intelligence. So we’ve sort of been across this for a long time. So, what I’m looking right now is the fact that there is just going to be so much there is already so much stuff that it’s overwhelming when you see the amount of content that can be created. I’ll just give you a funny incidence where, where I was developing some curriculum for, for India. So I’ve been asked to create a course.

for our friends over in India. And some of the lessons I was needing to do was some stuff that I wasn’t that familiar with. Okay, so they were taught a little bit differently. And so I was testing out a few different things and I’d worked all these, you know, there’s some problems out. I worked all these out and I just wanted to use AI to check my solutions and so on. And I put into AI and it went through and I, it went through all of my calculations and I edit.

I did a few things wrong and I thought, oh, I came up with a different answer. So I spent 45 minutes to an hour going through mine over and over and over again. And I couldn’t, and then I went back and I checked another program for my solution and my solution was actually correct. My original solution was correct. But the AI, when I put it through AI, it came up with a very nice solution. It came up with a very convincing solution. So much so it convinced me that it was right and I was wrong.

So it can actually lead you the wrong way. because it’s such, it seems to be such an authority, you can actually spend a lot of time following that and actually getting the wrong answer. So one of the things that I think our job, we’re doing more and more now, we’ll be curating. We’ll make sure that everything that we present, well, it always is, but everything that you can be confident

Ours is a curated, expert, correct way of doing things. The AI, and so that’s one of the bigs, I think there’s going to be a lot of rubbish out there and it’s going to be very hard to filter what is actually correct and what’s actually, what’s actually wrong. So that’s going to be a difficulty. And I suppose over the next few years, we’ll see how that unfolds. But I think for us certainly is that at CTC, we were really confident, we’ll

Christy Faith (49:59.586)
focused on making sure that our stuff is very curated so that it’s not popular, it’s not, it hasn’t got pollution, the internet pollution I suppose. The way I see the technology use becoming very well is the idea of someone who can, if they have a problem, they can ask, how to solve this? At the moment, the solution to just text.

Text, text is very hard for most kids to understand, just text. In fact, they won’t. But when it can create or point to a video, a great video that will explain that concept, that’s when I think the advantages of AI in education will take off. And then once they watch the video, then they can practice a question based on that video or a number of questions. And those questions can be adapted to become easy, become harder and harder.

I suppose that’s where I see AI being particularly good in the future. One of the problems I see though is the, you know, we talk about sometimes, you know, we’re in the most connected, you know, everyone’s connected on various devices or can, you know, we’re talking, you know, from one country to another right now in real time. Everyone’s, okay, we’ve never been so connected in

but there’s never been such a disconnect in history either for a lot of kids. So I think that’s one of the difficulties or challenges that parents will face with their kids becoming more more dependent possibly on technology and just losing those skills of just talking to people and being empathetic and all of those personal skills. think as parents, you’re going to have to be really very intentional

those, all of those skills are fostered in your children because unless you’re intentional about that, it’s going to be, it’s going to be very easy to be swept away and not, and, and any sort of identify that not, not when it’s ever too late. I don’t think you would then ever say, it’s too late to change. But the more that you’re on top of that early. That’s yeah, that’s fantastic. And one thing I’ve even seen stuff out there now where there’s, can tell it’s a computer talking, teaching lessons.

Christy Faith (52:17.72)
to kids, know, just supplemental programs in whatever subject. And I can’t help but think like, what kid is going to want to sit here and listen to a computer talking to them? just, and even when the computer sounds really good, you just still know. I think there’s a phenomenon. I can’t remember watching the show notes. People are going to write, this is what the phenomenon is called. There’s a phenomenon.

in human psychology that they have figured out where even if something looks so good, the human, we know if it’s not real. We know if it’s not AI, even if it’s really, really good. I forget what the effect is called, but you’re right. There’s just nothing that replaces human to human contact. If you’re enjoying the show and you don’t want to miss out on future episodes, hit that like and subscribe button and show us some love with your comments. Those five star reviews really do make a difference.

That’s right. Yeah. mean, even if you see like different websites and that and, yeah, and this is before AI stuff, but when you see, when you go to a website and then you see all these stock photos of, you know, happy people and all that, you sort of, know, your bright, your brain switches, well, that’s just a stock photo. And then you see just a genuine photo. You become a lot, okay. You’re much more interested in that genuine one. It’s nowhere near as professionally, you know, photographed or anything like that, but it’s real, you know, it’s real. So I think more and more of that, you know,

people will be craving for that real connection. And yeah, I think it’s a real skill as a parent to be very intentional to make sure that your kids don’t miss out on that. I want to ask you a question that I like to ask all of my guests. And it is, it’s kind of a biggie. And it is, I’d love to hear about one thing in your industry. So this is math.

that you just can’t get behind, that you kind of disagree with and you, it’s a hill that you stand on. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, the biggest one is something called inquiry -based learning or, or there’s a, that’s generally the term most people will understand, inquiry -based learning. So that’s where, and this is what I’m dead against. Okay. So I’ll just bring that to the front. And that’s where, you know, there’s, there’s been a big movement, particularly in

Christy Faith (54:35.286)
where that rather than explicit instructions or rather than give kids explicit instruction, you give them a way where, okay, open -ended questions. How would you do this? Yeah, that nothing, no, it was really wrong or, or, learning from your peer. Right. So there’s been a huge movement and it’s, it’s been disastrous. It has been absolutely disastrous. It’s still years. That’s why it’s, it’s, it’s good to know that, that there’s a lot of people who still think this is the way to go to teach math,

Inquiry -based learning is basically asking your kid to teach themselves from whatever source they like, if you put it that way. Or if you’re wanting to teach a kid to learn to swim, or inquiry -based learning, the approach is you row them into the middle of a big lake and you just chuck them all out. The ones who can swim to the shore, well, they’ve learned to swim by themselves. Forget about the 90 % of kids who drowned and you had to fish them back out and you’ve wrecked their confidence of swimming for life.

It’s really important. So explicit instruction is really, is really the bedrock. If you want to give kids the best, best chance of succeeding in math, it’s you got to give them explicit instruction. Okay. So basically you teach by example, you teach by example. It’s like anything in life, you know, how you, do, how do kids learn? They learn by your example or example of others. So that’s, that’s how people learn. it’s, it’s even, I find it crazy that this inquiry based learning

has even taken off and it’s been sort of wrecking the math system for the last, I reckon, three decades now. Yeah, exactly. Very similar to, I have very similar beliefs with math as to with literacy. No, it is explicit step -by -step instruction because we need our kids to have that solid foundation. It’s essential.

I want to ask you a little bit about CTC math. I know why I love it. I know why it’s been a game changer for our family, but I’d like to hear from you some features of the program that you have heard that parents that have particularly loved or have been very well received. Okay. Yeah, there’s, well, I think, I think the biggest thing is, that the teaching they get is, is understandable. It’s, it’s clear and concise. So they’re the videos and we’ve talked a little bit about that already. I guess one of the other things.

Christy Faith (56:58.51)
that we’ve really had a great lot of feedback from. It’s one of the things we’ve introduced just in the last couple of years is when the start of a school year, particularly, you’ve got this whole school year in front of you. How do we sort of plan out the course? And we’ve made that really easy. I’m so fascinated how the guys who do all the programming behind the scenes have done it.

basically a click of a couple of few clicks here, here, here and the whole year is mapped out for your child. So your child just log in and this lesson’s up there ready for them to do. Okay, they do that lesson, they’ve completed that little task or activity and the next time they log in, it’s the next one and the whole year is planned out. And then the parents are getting automatic reports. All of those and they’re really detailed reports, they’re

And, it’s just, just amazing. So that’s one of the big features which is introduced a couple of years ago. And we introduced that because, you know, parents at home said, wouldn’t it be great if it did this? You know, we’re spending a lot of time prep preparing and organizing and, and then, and then, so just based on that, that feedback, we’re able to introduce that. I mean, there’s a lot of program that goes behind that, but that was one of the great features that that’s, that’s been helping a lot

A lot of parents at home the last couple of years at least. guess some of the other things is just even things like when a child will get 100 % or achieve a certain score, there’s confetti pops up all over the screen. And that was funny because we just introduced that. I mean, we’ve deliberately haven’t put all the bells and whistles in that because that’s a lot of distractions. So we’d be very focused on how much to put in and what not

But when we put that in, we did it for the younger years. So sort of up to about grade four, I think it was. Okay. And anyway, the kids loved it. But then it funnily enough, the kids in grade five or grade six, you know, I saw their younger siblings getting this confetti. They were like, well, where’s our confetti? So we introduced it into the older years as well, which was, I think it was funny. was funny. Yeah. Well, you know what? There’s something to be said from that little dopamine hit, right? A little celebrating

Christy Faith (59:19.744)
And I’m usually in the room. I just like to be in the room to make sure, you know, they’re on the computer. I want to make sure they’re not going to YouTube. And so, but so I see that little confetti go off and it’s fun because I can say, good job. And then I get the report on my phone. You know, your kid just earned a certificate. The other cool thing is several weeks ago, cause you know, here where our school year is wrapping up here are pretty much done for everybody here. And a couple of weeks ago, I asked my son, Hey, where are

in CDC, like how many weeks do you have left? He was able to tell me and he knew exactly. It wasn’t like, Oh, I’m not quite sure. And then what’s great is we have our kids do 15 ish minutes of math all through the summer. We’re just big believers. You know, I was in the classroom. spent the first month and a half reteaching what the kids learned last year. And if you just, even if it’s five minutes a day, you can just move on in September when we start

So it’s just a policy of ours. Our kids wake up and they do their math and then we go off and do our summer fun, right? But yeah, and so it was just so, the program was so easy to just print off those reviews, just so, so simple. So I think you’ve done just an absolutely fantastic job. This is Patrick Murray on our show today.

and you can find CTC math at ctcmath .com. We’re going to put everything in the show notes and maybe we’ll even put a special discount maybe for homeschool parents in the show notes. I know that you like to give homeschoolers a little extra love in general, so we’ll make sure you guys can click all of those links. I really appreciate you coming on the show and sharing your wisdom, being a dad of 10 kids and also a seasoned and excellent math teacher.

just given us some encouragement today on this topic that can be really, it can be a sticky point in our household. So I really appreciate you coming on the show today. Thanks for having me, Christy.