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SUMMARY

Christy-Faith continues the conversation with Hannah Maruyama, discussing the concept of vocational creativity and challenging the notion that a college degree is necessary for success. Hannah emphasizes the importance of helping children explore different career pathways and highlights five degree-free options: getting a job, on-the-job training or apprenticeships, earning a license or certification, building or buying a business, and learning a skill. Christy also addresses common misconceptions about college and offers phrases that parents can use to respond to critics of their decision to pursue alternative paths.

TAKE-AWAYS

• Colleges often white-label success as a result of obtaining a degree, but success is more closely tied to factors like family support and resources.
  
• Parents can help their children explore different career pathways through vocational creativity, which involves being aware of the work happening around them and recognizing the variety of jobs available.
  
• There are five degree-free options for children after high school: getting a job, on-the-job training or apprenticeships, earning a license or certification, building or buying a business, and learning a skill.
  
• Parents can respond to critics of their decision to pursue alternative paths by asking questions that highlight the financial realities of college and the importance of aligning education with the desired life outcomes.
  
• It is important to challenge the notion that a college degree is the only path to success and to consider alternative options that may better suit a child’s interests and goals.

ABOUT TODAY’S GUEST

Hannah Maruyama and her husband Ryan build custom career roadmaps to help 16-20 year olds get great jobs without needing colleges degrees. They also run Degree Free, a top U.S. Careers podcast!

Find Hannah at:* https://degreefree.co/launch 

SHOW SPONSORS

TRANSCRIPT

Colleges are white labeling a result that has nothing to do with them. What they’re doing is they’re saying, well, if you go to college, you’re more successful. But really, measuring from the point of buying a college degree is the wrong place measure. Welcome to the Christy Faith Show, where we share game changing ideas with intentional parents like you. I’m your host, Christy Faith, experienced educational advisor and homeschool enthusiast. Together, we’ll explore ways to enrich and transform both your life and the lives of your children.

Christy Faith (00:31.512)
Welcome back to part two. In this episode, we’ll continue delving deeper into game -changing ideas for intentional parents like you. So grab your coffee, find a comfy spot, and let’s dive right in. What is this term vocational creativity? This is a term that Ryan, I’ll give credit to Ryan for this one, but Ryan actually coined this. And it’s because he grew up in a family where there was very little of this. Ryan has an economics degree and we always laugh at that and we call it the communications of because that’s what it is. But what’s funny about it is he talks at length about the fact that the reason he chose economics, and we wrote about this in our book actually that’s about to come out. He wrote about the fact that he was like, all right, I want to make a lot of money. Because his family said, you need to make a lot of money, whatever you do, like make a lot of money. He’s from Hawaii, Hawaii is very expensive. And they just said, you know, whatever you do, make a lot of money. He said, okay. And then that’s dance. And those are the three because he had no vocational creativity. And then he said,

And you know, I’m not going to be a doctor and I’m not going to go to banking. like, so I’m going to go into finance, I guess. And how do you go into finance? You get an economics degree. And so his view is that he got an economics degree because he has no idea. He had no idea what else to do. Yet he, no one had said, well, maybe you could do this or, hey, did you know that there are software developers that work for finance companies? hey, did know there’s HR that works for software companies? hey, did know there’s marketers that work for, you know, finance companies?

that you could be a trader, that you could be an analyst. There’s so many different jobs that go into those industries, but he only knew so many. And then the other thing is, isn’t it crazy that he bought, because we’re now bringing in some of the purchase, because that’s what it is, but he bought a four -year commitment and he bought a degree with no idea what job. And he actually did more research. He looked up economics majors and their average salaries and stuff, because he wanted economics.

but the average salary was not at all close. And he talks about this in our podcast, but when he looked it up, he said that it said economics majors make $71 ,000 on average. And his starting offer in Hawaii after he graduated was $31 ,000. Wow. Yeah, it’s not close. And it was just interesting because he identified that and just said a lot of the problem is that kids do not know, especially like 16 to 20 year olds have very little range of the jobs that are available to them.

Christy Faith (02:58.1)
we’ve proved that out by doing surveys and talking to the people that we’re working with. Most of the kids can only name six state jobs. If they come from public school, they can usually only name six. And of those six, almost all of them were required to buy college degrees or multiple college degrees. And that’s a huge problem because that’s not most jobs. That most jobs do not require college degrees, as we just talked about. And then the ones that do require college degrees, those, most of those are actually requests, not requirements. And now your child has a very limited view.

of work because they just don’t know what’s out there. And they have not been taught how to think or how to question or even really how to research. So they’re just graduating lost, honestly, is how I feel that they are. You talk about five degree pathways. What are these and how can parents leverage these? Yeah. So this is kind of entry level to vocational creativity too. So vocational creativity is

is starting to have your child be aware of the work that is going on around them. So it’s when you see a guy putting cones on the side of the road or surveying, you say, that’s a job. When you see somebody, know, anything visual, but then even deeper than that, like when you’re on the plane and you’re getting the little video announcement, say, did you know that the people in this, the people acting in this, that’s a job. Do you know that the people who put the makeup on these people in this ad?

That’s a job. Did you know the people that filmed it on the actual camera? That’s a job. The people who edited, that’s a job. The sounds that you hear are fully artist. That’s a job. You can do that for a job. So it’s just going deeper and deeper and like from Narnia, know, further up and further in always. You can always go further up and further in into work. And it leads you to other options that your kid might not know. But then the five degree three pathways is more of an entry level for parents who are like, okay, I hear you, you know,

My child can’t buy a degree or we can’t afford that or it’s not the right fit for them. Now what? What can I do? And they can go on one of five career path ways. Your child is not not going to college. Your child is instead going on one of five pathways. The first one is just getting a job. Like it’s not fancy. Get a job literally anywhere. My youngest sister, she started working at QuickTrip when she was 18 and she was immediately earning more than

Christy Faith (05:11.374)
just a couple years ago, graduating peers are earning now. Working in a gas station, she got promoted within six months, they have stop sharing options. Like people act like if your child goes to college, they’re guaranteed to make more than a high school graduate. They’re not. 45 % of college graduates a decade after graduation are still underemployed. Like they’re still underemployed. They’re still not making more than a high school graduate. Just so people know that there’s no shame. Your Costco bakery supervisors, which is a couple years of work, are making more than people in master’s degrees media.

just so people have an understanding of where this is. There is absolutely no shame in sending your child down the Walmart and having them work their way up. Why? Because that’s a find. There’s nothing wrong with that. That’s a career. Career is where you work and where you do your job. So, number one, get a job. Pathway number two, find on -the -job training or apprenticeship. And this is kind of what I was talking about, like, stereo processing techs at hospitals, on -the -job training, solar turbine techs is on -the -job training, Accenture, IBM, Bank of America, Google.

Twitch, Pinterest, Airbnb all have paid software development apprenticeships. I don’t know if people know that, but that’s a formal thing that’s going on. Twitch, when I saw that they had theirs, Open was paying $50 an hour to train people. This is nothing to sneeze at. And it’s getting paid to learn instead of paying to learn, which is how it should be. And then the third one is earning a license or certification. That could be anything from a notary to an actual pilot, but

For me, my experience with Salesforce admin, that’s a certification. It’s company specific, it’s tech specific, but it could also be something like, know, insurance claims adjusters or mortgage brokers or deserologists, which are mortuary makeup scientists. are certifications for that. There’s licensure for that. And then pathway number four is build a business or buy business. A lot of people, if you have the cashflow, and this is where this is such an interesting viewpoint of people,

They view buying a college degree as a worthwhile investment, but not helping their child cashflow a small local business that’s going to evaporate that has 20 years in business. And I always found that interesting because the failure rate for businesses, for small businesses, especially if they made it past that five year mark, is much better and much more of a guarantee than a college degree is. And so that’s definitely an option for people that have the money to do so. A lot of boomer businesses are closing

Christy Faith (07:31.768)
Their children do not want them. And so there’s all these small businesses that are about to just evaporate. And these small business owners do not have retirement plans. And so you could literally walk in with your kid and say, Hey, we’ll buy your business cashflow. We’ll pay you monthly after you were and you can retire. We’ll take it over. It just, there’s no rules here. This could be anybody. You probably need to know people in your local area to do this, but if you do try it, it never hurts to ask. You never know who’s going to say yes to

And then the fifth one is learn a skill. And that usually leads back to pathway number one, which is get a job, learn how to do paid Google ads, learn Google analytics, learn how to copyright, learn how to use AI to design art. It doesn’t matter, pick spikes, learn photography, doesn’t matter, just learn something useful that other people will take you to do. Before we continue, I wanna share with you a program that has been a game changer for our family.

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Christy Faith (09:42.422)
and feeling completely overwhelmed with the excessive amounts of opinions and curricula options out there. We love our kids and at the same time, the stakes are high. We don’t want to mess this up. So how do we build a homeschool that our kids will thank us for when they’re adults and one that you have a hundred percent confidence in? The first step to pulling all of that off is joining Thrive Homeschool Community. Thrive Homeschool Community is where you learn the eight step homeschool success framework.

to build an undeniably successful homeschool. Each year and each kid presents us with uncharted territory. But when you have a good plan, the right plan, you can rest in the security and confidence that you are doing a great job. The path is easy. Join Thrive, say a quick hello to your new friends, start the eight step homeschool success framework, and kiss anxiety goodbye. It’s risk -free.

No contracts. You can cancel anytime. questions asked. Go to Christy -faith .com. That’s C -H -R -I -S -T -Y -F -A -I -T -H .com. Enter promo code podcast for $10 off your first month. See you inside. That’s so great. Yes. And Scott and I are, we’ve been entrepreneurs and self -employed and have businesses our whole life. And people don’t realize there’s this entire marketplace for buying and selling businesses.

It’s real and the way that you buy and sell businesses can get very creative. So the person, the last business that we sold, that individual, there was a portion of it that Scott and I just financed and they paid us for a certain, you know, every month for a certain amount of years. And that’s how we ended up getting the deal done. So there’s lots of really creative ways. I love that, that one piece, because if you’re willing to invest,

how many hundreds of thousands of dollars in a college degree, you could buy a business. And let me tell you, we used to teach the kids of A -listers and billionaires, and most everyone wanted their kid to go to an IV, fine. A lot of that was about connections as well. They’re not dumb, they’re not dumb. And however, those kids that kind of were those outliers that just never fit in the box, their and their parents could afford this, I will admit, but they

Christy Faith (12:05.048)
their kids, for example, a bakery and she became a gluten free baker and bought her a small bakery in a town. And so that’s definitely an option. And it’s also something where say your kid doesn’t like it in five years, you can exit. can exit. Yes. Or your child can exit and do the exact same thing that you just did to get them in. We call that build a year on apprenticeship basically, because that’s kind of what you’re doing.

That brings up an interesting point though, what you just said about the the billionaires sending their kids to college. That’s one of the things I wanted to address because that gets brought up. It’s like, well, you know, all the rich people send their kids to college. I’m like, yeah, well, they can afford to. And it’s not only that, but what a lot of things that people don’t realize is that it’s something like 77 % of all bachelor’s degree earners come from the top 50 % of income. Essentially what I’ve realized or what I believe to be happening is that colleges are white labeling a result that has nothing to do with

What they’re doing is they’re saying, well, if you go to college, you’re more successful, but really measuring from the point of buying a college degree is the wrong place to measure. And if you go back a little bit further, what you’ll realize is people that tend to be more successful in life come from two parent homes, duh. And who goes to college? 75 % of the people that go to college come from two parent home. Well, that’ll do it. It’s not the result of the degree. It’s the result of the parents and the family that they came

And that’s a touchy subject for a lot of people, but I’m sorry, but I’m about the numbers. I don’t want people being sold something that is not accurate. It’s not the degree that is making people like that. It is the environment they’re growing up in, this type of support that they have and the resources they have access to. And it’s not that you cannot get those things, but going into debt, thinking that a college is going to get you those things, it’s just not a realistic way to go into that because that’s not what’s causing their success or having an effect on their success.

Yeah, I had a fascinating conversation a couple years ago with a friend who, and he’s a doctor, and he, we were talking about college plans for his daughter because, you know, we used to do college counseling and things like that. And he said, she wants to be a teacher. And so he said, he’s like, there’s absolutely, the ROI on that is awful. So we’re pursuing.

Christy Faith (14:16.908)
different ways for her to achieve this. He basically told his daughter like, no, not doing that. It’s just really outside of the box, which I think is so important for parents to hear on this. Now, something that is really useful for homeschooling parents in general, or any parent who doesn’t want to go this path with getting the degree, having their kid, counseling them in this way, what are some phrases they can use?

not mean, I’m not asking to be mean and snarky, but we do need to disarm people and just shut them up sometimes. Like just don’t interrogate me just because my decision is different than yours or don’t interrogate me because I believe something different than what are some phrases that parents can use to just, you know, leave me alone on this.

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Christy Faith (16:18.606)
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Yeah, so the first one, so your best friend, when someone is challenging you about a decision that you’ve made is to quietly ask them very simple questions. And the first thing I would ask, what is the median salary for what your child is going to school for? And they won’t know the answer and you will. So that is where I start. And then ask them, know, another thing, just armed with information is the biggest thing. So the first

is going to be that I’m like really having to think about it too. Because I argue with people all the time, but I’m not a parent defending that decision. So the first question would be, is, you know, my child is picking a path that is going to help them get the life that they want to live. That’s the biggest thing. So the whole degree free approach and the way that we do things in the launch program and the way that we write about in the book is helping your child get where they want to go. So

Christy Faith (18:33.954)
the type of income they’d like to make, the location they’d like to live, the type of schedule they want to have, the work environment they’d like to work in, and then industry. But other people are picking backwards. so the problem with that, especially for people, most of the people who are going to say something snarky like that to you are going to be people who have been sold the value of a college degree, not because they’re realistic, but because they are unrealistic. Because people are realistic about college, don’t speak that way. People who are going into it informed, don’t speak that

And so the people who are likely going to be saying that to you are people that have no idea what their child’s job prospects are. They have no idea how much debt the child’s going to be in and they don’t know how their child’s going to pay that back. All they know is that, what I did was better because it’s a laid out path and because, you know, because it’s just what you do. And so it’s just quietly ask them questions. Like, are their prospects after that? What’s their immediate salary going to be? How are they going to be able to buy a house? How are they going to be able to afford to do

And that’s one of the biggest things I got in trouble. I got on the wrong side of the seat. If I’m doing my job correctly, I end up on the wrong side at least once a week. But I said, I can’t understand how none of these millennial, and I’m the tail end of millennial, I’m Gen Z. I was like, I don’t understand how these millennials cannot understand. So for those who don’t know, the average cost of a bachelor’s degree right now is $104 ,000. If you go for five years and most college graduates go for five and a half, not four.

that you, don’t, people do not graduate in four years. That’s just not a thing. If you from that amount of realize that. I went to a private four year and graduated in four years, but it was a small liberal arts college for undergrad. But yeah, you’re right. Because what I hear about is like, cause I’m from California, like Cal States and all of those, you can’t get in the classes. You can’t, they’re full. And so yeah, I’m not surprised. And it’s, I’m not going to tell you how many years it’s been since I’ve graduated undergrad.

But yeah, no, that completely makes sense that no one’s really doing it in four years anymore. Ryan said when he was in college, and Ryan’s a little bit older than me, but he said when he was in college, it was impossible to graduate in four years. And he’s like, it’s a four year bachelor’s degree that you cannot get in under four years. He said after he graduated, they rolled out, look, it’s a four year program. He’s like, it was supposed to always be a four year program. Like it’s some accomplishment.

Christy Faith (20:50.028)
And I was actually, Chrissy, was cracking up the other day and I’ll have to publish this TikTok later, but I get Google alerts for degree requirements and I was reading this article and it was just like, okay, know, like Marybeth College in Andover, Massachusetts, it’s a collection of educators and faculty and admins and like forward thinking. They’re like trying to figure out how to fix the problems at college. What do you think that their grand solution was? It was college in three years. I’m like, it’s the same thing. And I was

If it takes them five and a half years now, your grand solution to the college crisis is, hey, a three -year degree program that’s gonna take them four and a half years to complete. That’s how they’re gonna fix it. Well, I wanna hear some stories. What’s a story that pops out to you of just an incredible success or a heartwarming experience that you had with a family where you were able to help them in a tremendous way? So I got a couple. One, I I just finished with a client in Florida.

And she is about to be 17, really into Legos, super into Legos, but also a critical thinker has been working since she was 14 and a half, very industrious, very bright, but just looking at the cost of degrees, she’s gone, I don’t think I need to do that. Good hand on her shoulders. What I found for her that made it to the end. So the way I do it is I go through their interest inventory, have them write things that are important to them. And then I go out and find a list of jobs. Most of them they’d never heard of, never thought

and I say, okay, here’s your list. Then we cut that list down and then I analyze what skills are gonna need to get each one of those jobs. We cut the list again and we end up with three jobs that I give them three ways to learn each one of the jobs on the list. So it’s a career curriculum basically. And for her, the top of the ones in the last three, I love this so much, was actually a horology school. So watchmaking. And she’s gonna go to the Rolex school in Miami. How freaking cool is that?

That’s amazing. It’s tuition free. It’s zero dollars. Yeah. What? So that one I like so stoked. was so I laughed when I found out. was like, my gosh, she’s going to love this so much. then when and because she and her mom have been doing it together and I went into rides. I was like, look what I found. I was like, she’s going to think this is so cool. And she did. So yeah, very excited about that. To the Rolex school? She’s

Christy Faith (23:12.942)
She’s applying, she’s gonna apply. She’s gonna apply soon. She’s gonna apply soon. how cool. looks like it’s close enough for her to start while she’s still in high school. So some of the kids I work with are too young to start whatever they’re going to do, but they’re old enough to start going that direction. So in the meantime, she’s taking an online Watchmakers 101 course that I found for her as an entry level start. So she goes in strong application and that’s where she’s gonna go. Pretty cool. That is so neat.

Well, I love that little insight into how your program works. So you work one -on -one with families. Is this correct? Yes, that’s right. So parents hire me and then I work with the student and then the parents come back into the final call and do the curriculum review. But parents are welcome on all the calls. So sometimes, especially with those under 18, the parents will be on every call, which I found to be really, really useful. And yeah, that’s been cool. That’s been cool. Another really good result I’ve got recently was

a kid, he’s 18 and he’s outside of Detroit actually, because I work with people all over the country. And he ended up with IOT automation specialists and IOT is the Internet of Things. So they Roomba, Smart Fridge, TV, automatic lights, anything like that. And okay, yeah, Internet of Things. And so he ended up being really interested in

And that honestly, it’s just a stack of technical skills. And then there is a certification, it’s not necessary, but for him, because he’s young enough that he has the time to work on it. He’s going to up doing that. And then we found him a really cool option. Sometimes I can find applicable jobs for them to apply to that get them paid. I will attach to this as well. If they’re old enough to actually apply for jobs. He ended up applying for, and I think he’s interviewing this week for that entry level specialist training job, which is really cool. Again, $60 ,000 starting.

If you’re enjoying the show and you don’t want to miss out on future episodes, hit that like and subscribe button and show us some love with your comments. Those five star reviews really do make a difference. Yeah, that’s fantastic. What is the name of your company that does this and where can people find you? Sure. So the name of my company is Degree Free. And then if people want to apply for the program, graduation is coming up. So that’s an exit point for a lot of people where they’re looking for another option.

Christy Faith (25:29.998)
So degreefree .co forward slash launch is the launch program. And that’s what I’m describing this, this four part process where we’re going through. Typically folks work with me for about 60 to 90 days. And I typically do about 35 to 40 hours of research on my end, sometimes more depending on how complex what we end up with is. Some people, the jobs they end up with on the career curriculum are very simple and some are more complex. So whatever they want to do is, you know, I just figure it out.

That’s pretty cool. Thank you so much for being on the show. We’re going to put everything in the show notes. And man, now I want you to teach in my community to go a little bit more in depth. I am so happy that we were able to meet in person and for us as homeschool families who are already kind of thinking outside of the box and starting to de -school ourselves to realize that, man, there are other options where our kids can be happy, successful.

live amazing lives outside of this four -year degree. And I love all of this reframing that you did for us to really look at it in a sense where you’re buying a degree. There is this piece of paper. How worth it is this? What is the ROI on it? And there’s a lot of shady stuff. People don’t realize those four -year colleges, they are businesses. They are money makers. That’s what they want. That’s what they need. They are not, you know, sitting around a table.

brainstorming what is the best for the students in their university. That is, can guarantee you that is not happening with these colleges where that is what is happening with us in our homeschools and with you and you are meeting with families. That is the question of the day is where are these kids gifts? How can we lean into these?

are all of their options after high school. And so I just want to thank you for what you’re doing in the community. I think it’s fabulous. And I’m really happy to know you, Hannah. It’s been really cool to be on your podcast. I’ve so enjoyed this conversation.